The Old Ball Game

It’s a brisk October afternoon in Kingston, New York, for the final game of the Vintage Base Ball 2025 season between the Kingston Guards and the Ulster Nine.

We're at Herzog Field, beside the Catskill Mountain Railroad Station and the  Hannaford parking lot, to watch two teams play baseball by 1864 rules.

From “ballists” and “muffins” to hand-caught fly balls and gentlemanly arbitration, this episode dives into the language, spirit, and spectacle of vintage base ball culture.

We hear from:

• Dan Torres, co-founder of the Kingston Guards
• Jon Palmer, team historian and player
• Brady, youngest ballist
• Holley Boncek, vintage baseball umpire
• Max, musician and Kingston Guard
• Brock, and additional members of the Ulster Nine and Kingston Guards

We get to know about:

• The rebirth of 19th-century baseball in the Hudson Valley
• 1864 rule differences: no gloves, fair/foul quirks, gentleman’s umpiring
• The community appeal of vintage sports

Music played:

"Take Me Out to the Ball Game" (1908) — Edward Meeker, Edison Records
 Digitized by the Internet Archive. Public Domain (U.S.).

Links & References:

• Kingston Guards — kingstonguards.com
• Instagram: @kingstonguardsbaseball + @ulsterninebaseball1864
• Vintage Base Ball Association: vbba.org
• Rules of Base Ball (1864 edition) — Library of Congress archive
• Jon Palmer’s photography: @joninthewoods

The Kingston Guards are a nonprofit organization. Donations help fund their community outreach, education programs, and historical research. Visit their website to join, volunteer, or contribute.

Conan Plays Old Timey Baseball

Inside Conan: Kevin Dorff Revisits Old Timey Baseball

Chapters

• 0:03 Arrival At Kurzog Field
• 0:16 Setting The Stage: 1864 Rules
• 1:09 From Conan To Curiosity
• 2:18 Meet The Kingston Guards
• 3:20 Game Day Energy And Injuries
• 7:48 What Makes 1864 Baseball Different
• 8:50 Strategy On The Field
• 9:49 The Mysterious Umpire Arrives
• 10:31 How Umpiring Worked In 1864
• 12:15 Who Can Play And How To Join
• 13:48 Public Reactions And Recruitment
• 14:37 Accuracy Vs Access: The Conan Question
• 15:26 Season Five And America’s 250th
• 16:51 Community Projects And Local History

Transcript

Speaker 11: 0:03

Hello and welcome to the Jiffy, the podcast about Upstate New York that takes you places right now. We're standing in the grounds of Herzog Field, right next to the Catskill Mountain Railroad Station at the end of the Hannaford parking lot in Kingston, New York. It's because we've got the team members of the Kingston Guards lining up to face the Ulster 9 and the season-ender doubleheader of Vintage Baseball 2025. Because it's Vintage Baseball, you know, they don't play by 2025 rules, of course. No, they play by the rules of the game as it was known in 1864, more or less, as you will hear. No, sure, there are pitchers, catchers, fielders, just as we know them today. But also there are captains, ballists, artists, and muffins, which is apparently what they are called their lesser skilled players. Now I was a muffin in a little league, always out there in the left field. I mean it was a T-ball, so the ball was never gonna go out that far. Nothing to do. Anyway, I first heard about vintage baseball like most people of my generation through the late night with Conan O'Brien show when Conan visited the Old Beth page Village Restoration on Long Island in the year 2004.

Speaker 4: 1:24

Hi, I'm at Old Beth page Village Restoration, where they play old time baseball, 1864 rules, 1864 costumes. Some say a waste of time, others say an incredible waste of time.

Speaker 11: 1:40

It was educational to me, that remote. It helped shape my approach to intimate journalism and uh documentary storytelling, of course. But it also taught me about US history. And while I found the piece illuminating, uh I've always wanted to know what did the vintage baseball community think about it. Anyway, fast forward 20 years or so, I live upstate now, and I started to see these photos, really good photographs of vintage baseball in the Hudson Valley uh on Instagram. It was on um, for example, uh the John in the Woods Instagram feed of historian John Palmer. Uh-huh. That was one good spot to see them. And what I think I liked most about them was not just that they were really fun-looking photographs of uh people in their uh sort of New York Knickerbocker outfits. Um, but it seemed like they clearly got a kick out of being in this historical space of this era of US history. I mean, it's the Civil War era, and they've got this whole wood type printing aesthetic. And I could also tell that they really enjoyed teaching people about the history of this time. So that's what really got me into it. And then I also wanted to know uh what brings them together to do this uh every season. So here we go. Uh the game is just getting started. Let's go out there, let's go over to the benches to see who's playing whom. It's the Ulster Nine against the Kingston Guards.

Speaker 8: 3:06

We're outside, we're on here, we are on the Ulster Nine side. And who do you have so far? Who do we have so far? We have uh these fine-looking gentlemen over here.

Speaker 7: 3:14

Uh ballists, we would call them in 1864. So my name is Dan Torres. I'm a co-founder of the Kingston Guards vintage baseball team. Uh founding story, I don't think it's that terribly exciting. I really enjoy photography. And it was pandemic era, so everyone was photographing birds. Wanted to find something outside of birds to photograph, love baseball, kind of stumbled across some vintage baseball photos. Just researched where a vintage baseball game would happen locally. There was one up in Delaware County. I went up to a game and honestly fell in love. And literally, I got home and I called my friend Taylor and I was like, we have to do this. This is such a cool thing. This will do well in Kingston. And he said yes, like probably too quickly, if that makes sense. Like with not enough, I think, background info to be like, yeah, you're right, we should do that. How are you feeling? Are you feeling in your game mode? Yeah, I'm excited. I'm excited. This is our last game of the year, which is really great. Uh we are ending up being the last New York baseball team to play in October. Didn't really work out well for the Yankees and the Mets. So uh we're happy to be here and offer the fans, the cranks, we would call them, in 1864, uh the opportunity to still watch baseball in October. And what are the age rates of participants you have? Oh my god. Brady. Fifteen, are you?

Speaker 6: 4:28

Yeah.

Speaker 7: 4:30

The youngest one. Is that right? That's right. And he's uh closest to the furthest away. We have one other guy from Bigham too. So you guys are it's close.

Speaker 2: 4:37

Oh, you're fine. So what brought you into the team? Why do you play? Uh kind of brought me is I don't really know, I just decided to join. How'd you hear YouTube? Baseball. Yeah. Are you good at it? I'm alright. Did they make you try out? What do they make you do to join the team? I just kind of showed up and they let me join.

Speaker 4: 4:58

Nice. Thank you for that.

Speaker 2: 4:59

Come over here and say how to join you. John, how's it going? How are you feeling? How are you feeling today? Getting ready?

Speaker 6: 5:03

I'm feeling great. I'm feeling great. No, it's a lovely day. It's a lovely day. I've got the sun in my face, the wind in my hair.

Speaker 9: 5:09

It's a little breezy. Is that gonna change how you think about the ball?

Speaker 6: 5:12

No, no. Mostly I think about it not hitting me.

Speaker 9: 5:16

Is that a big part of it? Trying to avoid being struck by the ball.

Speaker 6: 5:19

Well, I I'm a very delicate little flower. Everybody else here is pretty tough. So, you know, I'm just I'm just working on living up to their expectations, which is real hard. Max, Max is tough. So Max will be pitching for us, I think.

Speaker 3: 5:32

Oh, it's Doug today.

Speaker 6: 5:33

Oh, Doug's pitching today. All right. Yeah, alright, sweet. Oh man, we're mixing it up. Boy, live. Real, real uh uh piercing the veil here, getting to see the inner machinations of one of these pro teams.

Speaker 7: 5:47

I having seen the photos, I I did not know it existed, admittedly, prior to that. Um, and so through my research of trying to find uh a local team, went to a game and thought it was a ton of fun, and I just specifically thought that something like that would do well in Kingston. You know, Kingston's like a quirky town. Um, and I think the combination of like history people, and there's great rich history in Ulster County and specifically in Kingston. And I do kind of feel like there's this interesting like hipster vibe that would enjoy something like vintage baseball as well. And so the combo of the two, I just kind of felt like this will do well here. So yeah, this is our our my buddy Max over here, uh professional fiddlist. Ready, among other talents.

Speaker 3: 6:28

Should we line these guys up? Look at all these guards.

Speaker 9: 6:34

I uh saw the injury report. Looked pretty looked pretty serious.

Speaker 3: 6:39

Extensive. Yeah, there's a long list.

Speaker 9: 6:40

Exactly.

Speaker 3: 6:41

Yeah, there's even a Pinkies Club this year, with uh people who have suffered injuries to their last digit, myself included, working on a ruptured tendon right now, coming back from that. But the only cure is uh splint it up in weight. So that's what I've been doing. Still playing through it, because last year I learned that really doesn't make that much of a difference. I went and tried to play again on it after the doctor said it was okay to go and it dinged me again. So this year we just kept playing right through. And uh yeah, one more day to get through. And you and is it your fiddle in hand? No, you know last year it was. This year it's my bow in hand. So thank goodness for that. Last year I had a bunch of gigs during the uh interim when my middle finger was wrapped up, and uh some folks noticed, but others didn't, so we skated by that time. You're really playing with fire. You know what I've learned? Yeah, you know what I've learned? If you keep your you gotta keep your eye on the ball, you gotta keep your head in the game, and then you you you you usually come out on top. It's when you it's when you get lackadaisical that the ball's gonna find you and it's gonna catch you. Thank you. Play ball.

Speaker 7: 7:48

So, you know, a lot of people ask what vintage baseball is. We specifically play baseball by 1864 rules. And so there's a number of notable differences when it comes to that. Uh one of the biggest and most obvious when you watch it is there's no gloves. So you catch a baseball uh without a glove, that can hurt. We've had multiple broken fingers on the team, but uh that's how you play. Uh to mitigate some of those risks, a ball caught on a hop isn't out as well, so that's a very different thing. A ball that is hit in fair play and rolls foul, that is a fair ball. So that becomes a little bit of an exciting thing as well. It's underhand pitching. You can't overrun first base. I mean, I think really one of the big differences, like the bat people want the batter to put the ball in play. So it is a quick pace game. It is not uncommon to score 20 plus runs in a game as well. There are very few strikeouts, so um, the crowd tends to like it more because it's more fast-paced.

Speaker 1: 8:50

All right, still one away. Hello.

Speaker 7: 8:52

Tell us what happened there.

Speaker 11: 8:53

That was a pretty impressive game.

Speaker 1: 8:54

Thank you. Uh well, uh, I started to get the ball in play uh to move my men along, and thankfully we did that. Uh I noticed that uh Dutch, aka the Netherlands gentleman behind the dish. Uh his memory was lapsing. He was not paying attention to the runner on third, so uh with a faint torch second, I drew a throw, allowing uh Nick, aka Gato to score from uh uh from third base. How many runs did you bring in? Uh that play, I believe, run in two. Uh yeah, which makes the uh after uh one inning of play, uh excuse me, in the middle of one inning of play, uh four to uh nothing gives him guards.

Speaker 9: 9:36

Who's the gentleman with the wide brim hat and it looks like a pocket watch?

Speaker 3: 9:40

The umpire.

Speaker 9: 9:42

Oh, he's the umpire. Okay. Go speak with him. I'm not sure who he is. I haven't seen him before. He's very mysterious. I definitely want to chat with him.

Speaker 5: 9:49

Absolutely. My name is Holly Bonsick. I actually got involved in this about 25 years ago when I was a Civil War reenactor. We played a vintage baseball game, and then uh I got involved about three years ago. Uh friends of mine needed an umpire for a game, and I've been doing it since then. Uh, and my role is to be the arbiter. I am not what we would consider a modern umpire. I am more here to keep the game moving, and if there are any disputes, I am here to settle them.

Speaker 9: 10:19

Arbitration, yes. The rules from 1864. So it says rules and regulations of the game of baseball adopted by the National Association of Baseball Players held in New York December 12, 1862.

Speaker 5: 10:30

Yep. So since we're in 64, they hadn't adopted new rules yet, so we're still playing under the 62 rules. Um very different from modern baseball.

Speaker 7: 10:38

The way games are umpired is very different. There's a single umpire that um stands a little bit to the side because they also don't have gear, so it's not directly behind home plate as you would kind of think of in a modern baseball game. They issue what's known as a warning to the striker, which is the batter, or warning to the hurler, which is a pitcher, and that's when the count starts. So, really in baseball in this era, like the umpire is there to make sure the game does move along, but they are not nearly as prevalent in the game as a modern umpire is as well. Um, for example, if there's a close play on the base path, the umpire again is behind home plate, they will actually ask, like, let's say it's at first base, the first baseman and the runner to come up with the decision. You know, it's thought of as a gentleman's game, and therefore, like people should be able to honestly interpret the rules and say, I was out or I was safe, and kind of go from there as well.

Speaker 10: 11:25

That's all post if you want to join the league. What do people, if they're interested, what where should they go? What should they know? What should they prepare? Do they need to start working out now?

Speaker 7: 11:35

Uh well, luckily, this is an audio presentation, so you can't see the level of shape I am for the listeners at home. But um, no, I mean like it's it's a game where we are a very diverse set group of people. We have people on our team who are college athletes, we have people who are historians, and we have people who literally just like wearing a funny costume. And so we do a good job of like trying to incorporate everyone in a way that allows them to play and have a good time while also putting on a good show for people. And I think we've largely been able to do that mix uh appropriately.

Speaker 8: 12:08

Again, a bold call on the hop is an out. There are no outs as well.

Speaker 7: 12:12

Sometimes we have some people who want to challenge you on history and understand of like, well, did this or that happen in 1864? Most of the time you get people who are just genuinely curious and like want to know. And one of the cool things about a vintage baseball game is like you can go by a park in a town and see people playing any kind of rec sport, and you're not gonna stop. It doesn't catch you per se unless you're intimately involved. If you walk by a vintage baseball game and you're not expecting that, you are going to stop. Like it is a unique looking thing where in these older costumes it is a fun, funnier kind of dynamic, and so it really engages just kind of regular people to be like, what are you all doing? A lot of times people are like, when did this happen? or how do I get involved? It's it's actually been a great recruitment tool to kind of just walk up and down and chat with people.

Speaker 10: 12:57

Is the Conan O'Brien clip, is that a source subject in the community, or is it appreciated?

Speaker 7: 13:05

I can say from my perspective, I think it's really appreciated. You know, I think there's uh diverging opinions in any historical community about the like very serious, 100% accurate nature of something versus the we're gonna do our best and make it an educational moment to get more people involved in the thing we're talking about. Um I'm more of the latter group, right? Like I I would love it if you never saw a Nike swoosh on someone's sneakers and you know made sure everything was 100% accurate. We're not gonna be able to do that. We try our best, but I, you know, I personally think I'm willing to sacrifice some of those things to provide someone a fun historical opportunity and for other people in the community to participate in that on the playing field as well, too.

Speaker 10: 13:46

This was season four? Season four, yeah.

Speaker 7: 13:48

So next year's season five? Season five. Wow. I think we've been renewed for an additional season. Congratulations.

Speaker 10: 13:54

Uh, what are your hopes for next season?

Speaker 7: 13:55

Oh, I have high hopes for next season. So next year is America's 250th anniversary. Um, and uh obviously baseball, well, there's a debate about this, but baseball is not around in the way we think about it in 1776. But I think that baseball has just always been a great entree to talking about America and American life and the American spirit. And so I really want us to channel that for next year. So we have really exciting plans. Obviously, like what we do on the field, people have seen that. We want to trich we want to change up our uniforms next year, actually, to be a little more like patriotic ensemble. So that'll be a fun thing. And I also think we just want to lean more into the community and the history components of the stuff we're doing. You know, our team is named after uh the 120th regiment from um Kingston area was Ulster County and Green County. And so we've been researching some of the historic markers, and I think you know, next spring we'd actually like to clean up some markers from um people who are actual literal Kingston guards, potentially order someone uh a new headstone who maybe that's deteriorated in the last 150 plus years from that. Um, and just kind of researching some of the unique history that we found um in Kingston as well.

Speaker: 15:00

Take me out to the ball game, done by Edward Naker, Edison Record.

Speaker 11: 15:06

I want to thank Dan Torres, co-founder of the Kingston Guards and the Ulster Nine, for chatting with me. He wanted me to mention that they're always looking for more players, if if you're interested in that, and they're also looking for support. It's a non-for-profit organization, and you can donate. It'll all go towards funding their programming, community work, and historical research and education. If you want to join the team or make a donation, you can just reach out to them at their website, KingstonGuards.com or on Instagram. I'll have a link to both of those in the show notes. Thanks again, Dan, John, Brock, Brady, Max on the Fiddle, Umpire Holly, and all the players for letting me hang out and be a crank for the day. By the way, the final score for the doubleheader was 18-4 and 14 to 6. The Kingston Guards winning both. Way to go, Kingston Guards. A lot of my research for this episode comes from the rules and regulations as laid out by the Vintage Baseball Association. And I have to apologize to the historians and rulemakers of the VBBA, because the song that we're hearing right now is by Edward Meeker, a recording from 1908. So not totally period appropriate to the 1860s. I still love it though. If you like this episode, please forward it to a friend. This is a very small podcast, and things like that really help get the word out and make this podcast heard by, I don't know, your best friend. Anyway, that's it for this episode of the Gypsy. Until next time, I guess I'll see you over on the James Cave Instagram feed.